tv Charlie Rose PBS July 29, 2014 12:00am-1:01am EDT
krz welcome to the program. tonight a conversation with khaled mashal the political leader of hamas, a conversation in qatar. >> we do not want to launch rockets. we don't want to target people, excuse me i would like to give an example. if you look at the the palestinians martyrs, most of them are civilians, however on the other side they are militantsing they are combatants. this is emblematic of the morality of the resistance and the immorality of the israeli aggression krz we invited prime minister netanyahu to come on the show krol. tonight for the hour khaled mashal. >> funding for charlie rose is provided by the following
>> rose: additional funding provided by kohl qo >> and by bloomberg. a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: our focus tonight is on war in the middle east, the conflict between israel and hamas in gaza continues after a brief humanitarian truce unraveled on saturday. the death toll on the palestinian side has risen to over 1,000. over 50 israeli soldiers have lost their lives. on sunday president obama called israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu to urge an immediate, unconditional humanitarian cease-fire while the two sides pursued a comprehensive deal. early monday morning the united nations security council echoed the
president's call. peace remains elusive. israel is surprised by the strength of hamas's rocket arsenal and the reach of its tunnel network, wants to neutralize both threats. hamas says it will not cease combat operations until the siege of gaz az is lifted and border crossings are open. peace negotiations are complicated because neither the united states norris real deal directly with hamas. this weekend a traveled to the capitol of qatar where khaled mashal the political leader of hamas lives in exile. i sat down for an hour long conversation with him on saturday. >> khaled mashal, thank you very much for allowing us to come to your home for a conversation about an especially this weekend. secretary kerry had asked for a week cease-fire so that the parties could negotiate. why didn't that happen? >> yes, he did observe the efforts and he came to the capitol of the region. and we do appreciate his
efforts. we do appreciate the efforts that they seek to stop the bloodletting and to stop the carnage and we through the qatari foreign minister and turkish foreign minister will receive the ideas of kerry and the proposal that he did propose and we did-- seriously within our circuit of leadership inside and outside palestine to stop the israeli aggression and also to lift the siege and to stop the aggression and meet the demands of the palestinian people. however the israeli cabinet refused the paper of kerry. and they are to be held responsible. israel actually failed this paper and it has failed, the nine month negotiations that he actually-- between the israeli and palestinians. >> rose: as soon as you say that many people listening to you say the israeli aggression would not have happened if rockets from
gaza had not rained down on israel. >> who did start this episode. you do understand that the events took place in the west bank. some teenagers were unaccounted for in the west bank and netanyahu actually didn't reign in the settlers. and they practiced a heinous crime. they burned alive a teenager. and then he moved to gaza, netanyahu, he started the aggression on gaza. and the rockets are actually a response for this aggression. >> rose: when you look at those israeli teenagers who were murdered, did hamas have anything to do with it? >> from the start i did declare and announce that we did not know who carried out
such operation. up to this moment we don't foe who were the perpetrators. however netanyahu jumped to conclusion and accused hamas in order to justify his aggression on the west bank and on gaza. these settlers, actually, are looking at this on the west bank and these settlers are illegal. and its presence of the settlers is illegal. on the contrary, actually, the world did not take heed of the-- he was burned alive. >> rose: and prime minister netanyahu called his parents with a great apology and grief for the death of that young man. but you have not called the parents of the israeli teenagers who were killed. in fact, you said i cannot condemn the killing of settlers. >> there are two distinctions here. the first difference is as follows. those who burned him alive
were settlers. and they were known israeli authority know them. however when it comes to the teenagers, nobody knew who killed them. the other distinction is as follows. mohammed lives in his country, in jerusalem. the settler does live on an illegal land. they are armed. they are-- the settle ares carry weapons and they kill the palestinians. and they run over women and children. they distort the lands and agriculture and the settlements are illegal and the settlers are illegal as well. their presence is illegal. >> rose: so you do you think the killing will begin anew after the cease-fire? >> there is no-- leader who respects himself condone the killing of his own people. those who were responsible for killing our people, 900
martin-- martyrs an 5 to 6,000 casualties, a lot of homes were actually taken into rubble. there are plenty of atrocities. netanyahu is responsible person. the war in gaza sends two messages, mr. charles, to the world. the first message, it is high time to lift the siege on gaza. gaza wants to live,. >> rose: that is exactly what secretary kerry has asked to be negotiated after the cease-fire, to have a week of cease-fire. so you could do that. but you're asking that to be done as a precondition to the negotiations. >> this is not a prerequisite. life is not the prerequisite. life is the right for our people in palestine, since 2006 when the world refused the outcome of the elections, our people actually lived under the siege of eight years. this is a collective punishment. we need to lift the siege. we have to have a vote. we have to have an airport
this is the first message. the second message in all to stop the bloodletting, we need to look at the underlying causes. we need to look at the occupation. we need to stop the occupation. netanyahu didn't take heed of our rights. and mr. kerry months ago tried to find a window through the negotiations in order to meet our target, to live without the incubation, to reap our states. netanyahu has killed our hope, killed our dream. and he killed the american initiative. >> rose: but the egyptians had a cease-fire proposal which the israelis accepted and you didn't, yes? >> yes, we did not agree for two reasons. the first reason because this initiative does not lift the siege. it starts with the cease-fire. and then the subject up to negotiating that we don't know the outcome with. we know the approximation as follows. the other thing is as follows. the egyptians did not
console, did not open a dialogue with the palestinian factions in gaza. however in the past, we managed with the egyptians a number of maneuvers. we have actually reached a truce. -- was released and so on and so forth but now the method was wrong. that why it has failed. >> rose: but here is what many people believe, that regard its before the israeli rocket came, there were hamas rockets. >> this is the narrative, israeli narrative. this is unaccount, israeli account. this incorrect, as i said to you, this started in the west bank. netanyahu actually was pressurized by-- especially and disgruntlement in the street of the israeli towns. and that's why they wanted-- he wanted to revenge.
he started the-- this episode and we retall grated. we do not like to launch rockets. we do not want to target people. excuse me, i would like to give an example. if you look at the martyrs, the palestinians martyrs, most of them are civilians. however on the other side they are militants. they are combatants. this is eeh5atic of the morality of the resistance, and the immorality of the israeli aggression. >> rose: it is with respect not just israelis sayng this. this is former president bill clinton, quote, hamas was perfectly well aware of what would happen if they started raining rockets on israel am they fired a thousand of them and they have a strategy designed to force israel to kill their own civilians so the rest of the world will condemn them. that's president clinton, not an israeli. a man who worked hard to create peace between palestinians and israelis.
>> with all due respect to mr. clinton, unfortunately, the world doesn't want to blame the israelis because the rest of the world, indeed, know that the blame is on the side of the israelis. when it comes to the-- this didn't take place on the side of the palestinians. secondly, if you could imagine the following scenario. when the siege is lifted on gaza, when the occupation on the west bank, jerusalem and gaza is stopped and we reach a state, than wouldn't we have a window to stop the bloodletting and to have security for the israel why do you call for security for israel and why don't you call for lifting the siege and stopping the occupation of the palestinians. why don't you give the right
to live for the palestinians as the other nations-- this is actually the last occupation in the world. >> rose: my understanding is that is exactly what secretary kerry is preparing and trying to do, to engage israel and hamas throug through-- through qatar and turkey to be able to deal to the issues of the border crossing, to deal to the issue of fishing rights, to deal to the issue of a port, to deal to the issue of the condition of the people in gaza. but you have to do that through negotiations. and that's what secretary is trying to do. but missiles are flying back and forth but gunned by hamas. >> mr. charlie, the method of the americans is actually incorrect. they know where are the rights of the palestinians. they know the errors of the israelis. they actually present us an umbrella for negotiations to the israelis and the
palestinians, whether it is to do with the negotiations here and there. and they leave the palestinians subject to blackmailing. they do not compel israel, mahmoud anas had nine months of for examples and the outcome w zero. if we negotiate with israelies to lift the siege and stop the occupation, we then will be delving into a marathon of negotiations. the american administration will only resort to negotiations. they know crystal clear our rights and as the superpower they can compel the israelis. and i do actually call upon the administration through your-- not only to take heed of the symptoms, they need to diagnose the disease and they need to have our state, indeed, emerge on the
borders of 1967. >> rose: '67, '67, you're not talking about 48y, you're talking about 67 borders. >> this is the problem. this is the problem that all the factions, all the palestinians factions have agreed upon, yes. >> rose: the problem is -- >> the problem, the problem is the siege and the occupation. the occupation and the siege are the problem. we have to stop the occupation. we have to stop the siege and then we can have security. >> rose: two questions, one, president obama said and others have said no nation can expect not to respond when rockets are being rained down on top of them. and the argument is it would not have happened if you had not sent those rockets in the beginning. >> let me move this beyond that. what is your short-term goals. and your long-term goals. >> well, first of all, will i go back to the account.
those who started shooting is not gaza. they are not-- it's not gaza. the rockets were as a defense against the aggression. those who started the aggression is netanyahu and the israeli army. it's mr. booma. is surprised of such action. the question is as follows. do you expect any one not to respond if he is attacked in his own homeland. so gaza responded as well. so why obama and the leaders of the free world w why don't they surprise vis-a-vis the occupation of our land for several decades without having a window of hope. what what if it's possible for us to live time and time again under occupation, human beings, or to defend themselves. if are you pressurized, if you are nailed, we are served, if we are under
blockade and siege we have to defend ourselve when we are subject in the west bank. in jerusalem hundreds of settlements, 600,000 settlers in there. and if netanyahu stops every single effort to reach a cease so the rest of the world knows to expect it an explosion in the west bank and gaza, what do i want. hamas needs a once peace, again. we want peace. but we want peace without occupation, without settlements, without ju-- without siege, we want to live on par we have ree single nation in the world. we need to live in palestine. >> rose: let me take you back to the time that the israelis withdrew. they took their settlers out. they took their military out. they said here is gaza. make it flourish. we're giving it back to you.
we're taking the settlers out. we're taking the soldiers out. even american businessman gave some money here. did you miss an opportunity to take advantage of that? >> because sooner than later you began using that as a military place to rain rockets. >> yes, israel withdrew from gada. and expelled the settlers. however it started with aggression. you can actually ask the egyptians who were the sponsors of a number of initiatives who did violate the initiative. israel time and time again violates this and they don't need the palestinians to respond. yes, israel withdrew from gaza but they pulled the strategs of the crossings, the sea and the land and the air. so they are an occupation-- albeit they withdrew from gaza. so gaz is is not away from
the aggression of israel. if gaza live was occupation, without aggression, without blockade, without closing of the crossings, without starvation, then we-- then this will be fine. and this applies actually to the west bank as well. because gaza and the west bank are two parts of the palestinian-- and we are one nation. we want to live without occupation in the west bank and in gaza. >> rose: you want to live in coexistence with israel? >> i do not coexist with occupation, with settlements. >> rose: so israel withdrews-- withdraws from gaza from the west bank, '67 borders. is that the beginning of a two state solution that will bring finally -- >> israel up to this moment did not give us any indication, any serious indication that they will
withdraw from the west bank. if you look at the leaders' statements or otherwise. when israel practically commits itself to withdraw from gaza completely and the west bank without any settlement and if we have-- as our capitol and the return of the refugees is there, then we will reach peace. israel is killing-- . >> rose: if you have that will you pledge to the security of israel? will you pledge not to eradicate israel? >> do you think that palestinian who suffers from starvation and settlement can eradicate israel. this is a propaganda, a we giling misleading op ganda. we need to live in peace. >> rose: i done think you can eradicate it, i don't think you can. but i think that there needs to be a justice for palestinian, a territory for palestinian and two states. people are worried that the
idea of a two state solution is slipping away. >> yes. the world is saying that the two state solution is slipping away, indeed. those who are caught. but who did actually lose, those who killed are the leaders of israel since the '70s and '80s. and then at the madrid conference and also accord. you can go back to all the american administrations and the leaders. a number of them actually tried. they went through-- i actually ad the memoirs o of-- carter and they knew what was going on. those who killed the political path is israel. i can say that on air. the palestinian people in a nutshell want to live without occupation. want to live free in an
independent state. we have two paths. the first one which is the better one is the peaceful one for the rest of the world to pressurize israel in order to compel it to withdraw. we say to the world thank you, we will live peacefully. and if this path failed t has failed actually, then we have to resist. we have to defend ourselves as all the nations did. >> rose: so rather than saying we can't eradicate israel y don't you say we don't want to eradicate israel. we want to live side-by-side having a full state for us, and for our people. why can't you say that? >> what does it mean when hamas agrees with fatah and all the factions in the unity government and says that our national goal, that we is joined forces to reach is to have a state on the borders of '67, with
jerusalem as the capitol and the return of-- that means everything palestinian actually agreed on this. who throw-- in the world t is israel. israel actually negotiated with arafat and killed the-- in him. israel is negotiating with abbas and is failing him. israel is killing can the peace process. nobody can blame the palestinians. the arabs had the initiative in 2002 in beirut. 12 years later what did israel dop. the american administration what did it do, and the palestinians actually provided all the positive indication in order to reach a genuine peace. but those who killed it is israel. she says that she wants the peace but it wants security. and it wants the land only. how can it have the land and security and not reach the peace. >> rose: what you reflect is what martin indyk without worked with secretary kerry
said s the problem leer in the end is palestinians don't trust the israelis. and the israelis don't trust the palestinians. in the end that's the problem. how do you get beyond that? how do you create trust? >> mr. charles, do you think that the key for the solution is trust? we are actually enemies. they are the occupiers. we are enemies. the solution doesn't start with trust. as i said, the solution starts with the international community's volumician to say to the israeli occupation stop. enough is enough. they ought to compel israel to withdraw. so how could i trust my enemy? and we had a number of negotiations, and the negotiations were failing. >> rose: do you believe israel acts at the behest of the united states? >> the capacity of the american administration to pressurize israel has
nothing to do with israel listening to the-- to america. but it emanates from the fact that it is a superpower, ie america. it is responsible for that. why did america come to iraq and why did it expel saddam hussein from kuwait in 1991. was iraq subservient to america, no. any nation that supersedes the red lines, then the superpower ought to compel the other to meet their international standard. eisenhower in the '50s actually pressurized the israelis after the war of '56 to move away from sinai. the administration, they can do that. but now they don't want to exercise the moral responsibility, and they know the shortcoming has to do with israel. >> rose: and begun and sad at were able to form-- sadat
were able to form an agreement at camp david. the israelis gave back territory and the-- signed a peace agreement. >> yes this is good, begun withdrew, for sharon, ohl mert, they withdrew. why israel actually had an overture for the syria, and they had also an agreement with the egyptians, why israel is insisting on keeping the west bank and jerusalem. >> rose: let me ask you this. do you believe that you can solve this by violence? >> in our culture as arabs and muslims, we have a prophet saying, the prophet said the prophet had two choices. and he followed the easiest choice. that means we ought to follow the easiest path, the better path. as a palestinian i want to be liberallized. i want a state.
i want to live without occupation because we don't like to kill our sons and daughters. but if we don't have the peace, then the resistance is legitimate. so the world has two choices. they need to help us reach a state or we will expel the occupation from our land. >> rose: so unless the world will take the israelis out of the west bank, and gaza, you will expel them militarily. that's your objective. you believe you can do that? >> i do believe this as i see you now, it is a conviction. why? >> because time and time in the history of nations says that people have the upper hand over the occupation. albeit there are disproportionate standards. yes, they have the upper
hand but every single occupation ends and the people become victorious. i have the will. i can die because of israel. however, those looters who occupy our land, they love the life. i cannot live under the occupation. the occupation is the worst thing that you can ever imagine. so every single palestinian can die for the next generation to live in peace and freedom. >> rose: let me talk about hamas and gaza. it is said that hamas and its governance was in a bad way. it could not even pay its civil servants. and therefore they are open to a unity agreement with the palestinian authority. and mr. abbas. is that unity working today? >> what roll does mr. abbas play in all of this? >> hamas.
>> first and foremost hamas used to suffer, however its management of gaza was successful indeed. we surmounted every single challenge. i actually challenge any government to manage 1.8 million people in our circumstances. we were successful. but indeed, yes in the last few months, we fell short of paying the civil servants, indeed. and this the responsibility of the international community. but this didn't compel us or propel us of the unity. the unity was to do with our right. all we didn't want to pull the strings of governance. we are wanted for unit
government. israel prevented it from sending the transaction, sending the money for the gazans so the gazans said enough is enough. you wants to have a blockade on us, the crossing blocks, our casualties or our ill people cannot travel. we cannot go to universities, it is an open air jail, 50,000-- 50,000 civil servants along with families that amount to quarter of a million people were deprived from the money had. that is why gaza has turned into a time ticking bomb that plu in -- blew in the face of israel why dow kill us for election calculations. netanyahu, agressed and blocks. crossing.
why we don't have an airport, how could you ask us why do you-- why are you surprised because of our resistance. reresist and we not transgress. when it comes to mr. mahmoud abbas. he is our partner. he is the palestinian president, he is our partner in the reconciliation. nd you accept his leadership to negotiate with the israelis through secretary kerry an can speak for hamas and hamas accepts his it principleses an his values and his negotiating stance. >> mr. mahmoud abbas is the palestinian president. he is our boss, authority and when it comes it to negotiations there are no negotiations any more. actually netanyahu tamp
eled -- trampled on telephone. and he turned away every single choice, american choice, actually, american backing, so this is an il use. hamas-- illusion, hamas has talked about the management of the paleinian decision. mr. abbas nine months ago went unilaterally. he didn't consult us. he didn't consult the other palestinian facs, however we as palestinians are ready to participate in rich rooing the political decision. but it has to be institutionalized and it has to be-- linked to our people t the volition of our people whether it was mahmoud abbas or others. but the problem-- please, allow me pinning the hopes on negotiations is incorrect. how you could negotiate a person who actually denies your prize. netanyahu thinks that the west bank is an israeli land. so how coy negotiate him.
look at me. negotiations are successful when there are prerequisites, mauir-- mature ple recognize businessities. our negotiations with israel is failing because israel has the upper hand and it doesn't take heed of what we say. >> some say the issue for israel is they have security, they insist they must have idf forces, israeli defense forces on the jordan river. they suggest, you know, that they have to be restrictions on the sovereignty of a palestinian state. all of that is unacceptable. to you and to mr. abbas and to anybody who represents the palestinian viewpoint. >> why-- dow understand the security issues, the israeli security issues and on the other side does not take heed of the palestinian security issues.
secondly, when it comes to the solution in order to have the palestinian state, why the state asked not to be independent, why ought to be demilitarized. why is it to be not sovereign. this is a live and you cannot transgress me and as a palestinian have the right to live in a sovereign country, to have a militarized state on par with britain, on par with america. who accepts a state without arms. it will be subject to the aggression of others. i cannot accept any tutelage of any other entity. but if you say come, you are a palestinian and we can give you a piece here and there and a piece male fashion, no. you know the palestinian people are very cultivated
and the palestinian people did struggle and they are civilized. and they have plenty of brains. but now we are deprived from freedom, deprived from independence. my message to mr. obama, to the world, to america which talked about democracy time and time again, we need to apply their standard on palestine in order not to have a double standard. >> rose: let me ask you about this. it is also said that hamas was out of sight and almost out of mind before this most recent explosion of violence which puts us in this conflict today you had seen, you left damascus, syria is no long are supporting you. it is said the apply iran that you had met with the
supreme leader and was not supporting you. egypt was clearly not supporting you the way general morsi was. general sisi has a different attitude. he closed the border. that you are alone, almost, except for qatar. is that a fair observation of where hamas is today? >> they try, they want to read us as you explained. actually i will leave it to you. you can think that we are on a difficult position. but in this conflict, we did fight its occupants. the world was surprised of our resistance against one of the most powerful army, the israeli army. this sends a message and says that hamas's power has nothing to do with the regional circumstances or
the-- circumstances. it emanates from its sticking to its people in support of the palestinian people because it represents the palestinian people's needs and aspirations. we reflect the aspirations. the palestinians long for freedom, long for independence. they think that hamas is doing well. >> do you believe -- >> the power, the genuine power of hamas power, if this country supports me or not, yes, this will affect me from time to time but it is a sideline kind of impact. but our power is the justice of our cause. >> so you believe and you are saying to me that the people in gaza who are suffering the most in this, understand and support everything that hamas is doing, notwithstanding the terrible consequences for
civilian and for children. >> they support you, they believe, they're willing to endure this war because they think that what? >> it might sound contradicting. the image might be contradictory but it is actually the truth, the voices of all the palestinians in gaza. they say we are suffering, indeed, because of the crimes of israel, the carnage and also the homes that were reduced to rubble am but they say we don't want to emerge from this war without breaking the siege works lifting the siege and actually we were dying slowly. now we are dying instantly because of the f-16 and all the technology, the american technology. the palestinian people is had enough. they do not make distinctions
to be a slow or instant death. they say yes, we are suffering. they say we are suffering but we want resistance. we want full resistance on reaching, lifting the siege. >> rose: there is also this issue that comes up between the discussion, and i want to go to the negotiations now. representatives, the foreign minister of turkey, the foreign minister of qatar is meeting with its secretary of state of the united states in paris. tell us what is going on. what is the secretary of state acting through qatar and turkey of you. what does he want from you? >> yes, the it is to do with
the-- from different countries. they want-- about their reconstruction of gaza and providing assistance. this is good and we do appreciate these efforts. we thank every single country that provides assistance to our people. however, this is not enough only. because the coast, the-- it is not only humanitarian t is national, it is political. the other thing is that to lift the siege as i said and to finish the occupation. as for mr. obama-- the ministers were here. we met them and they want to paris. and part of their talk with mr. kerry and the european leaders in addition to recognize construction and providing assistance is to seek a way whereby we can reach an agreement to stop this war and secure lifting the siege.
and we said to them, any agreement that stops the aggression and lifts the siege and meets the demands of the palestinians, we will cooperate with it. we cooperate with mediators. even the mission of kerry. we cooperated. we want it to be successful. however the israeli cabinet refused it. >> so if the siege is endnd and by that you mean the borders are open, the port is open, fishing rights, what else? >> these are the fundamental issues in gaza. and the west bank, as well since the 12th of june, israel rounded up hundreds and some of them actually were those people who were released. so that means that israel has violated the agreement
of 12. if these demands were met and the gazans felt that the siege is lifted be sure the war is stopped. >> rose: there will be no more rocketses and no morris rheal rockets going from. >> can the qataries and turkey authorize that deal for you, are they authorized to do that. they can make that deal. >> yes, yes, we have authorized them and we ask them to observe every single effort to leave-- in order to-- actually we welcome the mediation with the america and the egyptians as well. we do not have veto on any effort of any single state or nation. our condition ask to meet the demands of our people, lift the siege to stop the occupation and the rest of the demands. >> some people raise this question, do you have to get approval from the military
wing of hamas who are fighting now in gaza? do you have to have their approval before you can make a commitment? we are not two heads or two parts. we are one single movement 9 decision is too deal with the political leaders. when the polit call leaders commit to something then the military wing will commit itself. >> are you the political leadser, so if you make a decision, the military will follow. >> yes, definitely, definitely, yes, definitely, we are an institution. we are a respected institution. the leaders when they make a decision, then every single person within the movement, whether he or she or militants or civilians, they will follow. so the leaders do not take any steps unless it meets the demands of all palestinian people.
>> some also ask why are you here and not in gaza, that if, in fact, you are the voice of hamas, you should be in hamas, in gaza with the people of gasa, that's the place for you there is the very reason of the question, logical question you can ask not only to you ask ask 6 million people why they are not at the west bank, why they are not in gaza. because israel has expelled the palestinians in 1948 and in 1967. since 1967 i was expelled actually i'm from ramallah, from west bank, i was expelled and millions were compelled to live outside their own country. and they actually are compelling another to live under its occupation it is natural for me to be there but the occupation doesn't allow me to do so you have
hundreds of thousands of palestinians in america and they long to go back to palestine although-- all be they are american citizens. palestinians long for their home country, that's why we insiess on the return of the refugees, for me and others to return. >> so are you saying the only reason you are not there is because you can't get there. >> yes, definitely. my natural existence is there but here i'm compelled to be. i used to live in jordan, in kuwait. when i used to be a student and then i moved to syria, now if qatar. palestinians follow a nomadic kind of journey it is actually a daunting journey. that is why it is high time for the occupation to stop and the settlements to be stopped and for the people of palestine to be empowered to have their own state and for the refugees in the
camps to come back to their own land. >> how do you think this will end? >> every single occupation ought to fail and every single occupation ought to stop and every single settlement ought to perish. yes, it is difficult, we'll pay a price, mandela played-- paid plenty but he was victorious at the enof the day, ultimately. the palestinian people will be independent. that's why i say so every single soul, i say to the american. >> he was an-- in coexistence, he recognized and reconciled with the people that he was in competition with and without put him in jail. yes, due he didn't live with the occupants, because the system was different. it was a democratic system later on.
all of the south africans lived within democracy. but israel wants to be occupiersnd others ought to live in its shadow this sun reasonable. those genuine people who are the landowners, we are the owners of this land. and we ought to live free on our land and not under any other tutelage. >> dow believe that the israelis want to be occupiers, that they do not want to and will not willingly give up the west bank? >> you'll have to take it back. >> these are their statements. these are the statements of all the leaders of israel even when they negotiate in the past and abbas what do they say. they primesed they say we want the jordan valley or they procrastinate. we want in setement to be here and there and israel in
the west bank what does it do? today the west bank resembl resembles-- israel thinks that the best bank-- west bank spart and par sell of israel that is why they refuse any solution. >> history also shows that israel withdrew from southern lebanon, history shows that they withdrew from gaza. and there's no reason to believe they will not withdraw from the west bank yes, this is true but we ought to draw lessons. when did they withdraw. they withdrew under the military pressure from south lebanon. an sharon withdrew from gaza under pressure after the second intefada, second uprising. and then after the 1973 war
they withdrew from sinai, israel believes in the language of power, when they are compelled it to do so, they do withdrew. i have two models here. israel actually withdrew. they followed in 1956 after american administration compelled it and in lebanon they did so because of the military pres sewer as well. >> so the killing will continue in gaza. >> we hope that it will not continue one single moment. they kill every day 120 civilians. if we kill them we kill militants. who enter gaza we do not
wish for the killings to continue. we wish for our people to live without occupation and for the siege to be lifted this is a humanitarian right for the people of the world ought to believe in this. >> rose: dow hope israel survives as a state? i don't want to have my own con jeckure. i reessential the resistance but the cia and kissinger, for example an other pundits say they are aware that israel is a fragile state. it resorts to occupation and aggression. it services the west, they
are looted an that's why they are-- at the core and israeli leaders know that they are occupies that is why they have anxiety they suffer from anxiety and i think that the occupation has no future and the western politics ought to be reformed i do understand, i do know that are you a superpower are you a civilized people and we don't have any problem with the united states or the american people. we have a problem with the foreign policy and the bias vis-a-vis israel. arabs and muslims want to live with all the people. they want to coexist with others to have mutual interests with others but we do not want for the west to support israel. >> let me just ask you this because of who you are. there is a war going on in iraq what do you make of
isis and what they are trying to do in iraq. >> who had paved the way for such sectarianism to flare up in iraq, i think is the american occupation of iraq in 2003. they destroyed the iraqi government. they did not topple saddam hussein but they destroyed the iraqi army. the iraqi security, the institution. so i hope that in our hand in afghanistan n iraq and syria, i hope a peace will be reached and i hope to pull their own string was any intervention from the rest of the world. i hope the christians and muslims here, sunnies can coexist with each other. unfortunately israel and the american foreign policy lead to these
contra-- contradictions and they might be happy because this will tear into the arab body. >> dow believe that isis will be able to create a chall i fat. >> this is a different chubt. and you know that most muslims, this doesn't appeal to them but as i said when it comes to players, you can see such ideas. we in hamas believe in the moderation of islam. we are not fanatics. we are not fundamentalists. we do not actually fight the jews because they are jews per se. we do not fight any other races. we fight the occupiers. on the contrary, we actually respect the religious people. we ask for tolerance for coexistence between the buddhist, the jews, the christians and the muslims. as you know god created us as nations, we are different. and its koran says that in
order for the nations to live together and coexist without any blockade. >> i think i just heard you say and we will close on this, you believe in the coexistence in people and therefore you believe in the coexistence of palestinians and israelis in the middle east. >> i can't coexist with occupation. but without occupation you can coexist. >> i'm ready to coexist with the jews, with the christians with the arabs and nonarabs and those who agree with my ideas and also disagree with them. however i do not coexist with the occupiers with the settlers and those who-- it's one thing you to say you want to coexist with the jews it is another to say you want to coexist with the state of israel am dow want to coexist with the state of israel? do you want to recognize
israel as a jewish state. >> no i said i do not want to live with a state of occupiers. i do however at that point dow want to coexist and recognize their right to exist as they would recognize your right to exist. >> when we have a palestinian state then the palestinian state will decide on its policiesment you cannot actually ask me about the future. i answered you. but palestinian people can have their say when they have their own state without occupation, in natural situations they can decide policies vis-a-vis others. >> rose: thank you pleasure to speak with you. >> for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us firstname.lastname@example.org an
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